Inside JWST with Dr Achrène Dyrek

Welcome to Growing Worlds, the podcast where we explore the science of exoplanets through conversations with early career researchers on the front line of discovery. I'm Lorenzo.

And I'm Jenny. In each episode, we meet a guest who takes us behind the science of planets, stars, and sometimes even the telescopes that let us see them.

Today we are talking about one of the most famous scientific instruments ever launched, the James Webb Space Telescope. But instead of focusing only on the discoveries, we are exploring the people behind them and what it's actually like to work at the heart of this mission.

To guide us through that world, we're joined by Dr. Ashren Durek from the Space Telescope Science Institute. Ashren, welcome to Growing Worlds.

Thank you, hi.

Hachene is a NASA physicist specializing in exoplanet atmospheres. During her PhD at CEA in France, she worked extensively on the mid-infrared instrument MIRI, which is on board of JW Space Telescope. sorry, need to say it again, because I messed up.

That's good.

just out of habit, GWSD. Ashran is an astrophysicist specializing in exoplanet atmospheres. During her PhD at CEA in France, she works extensively on the mid-infrared instrument MIRI on board of the James Webb Space Telescope, helping to simulate and interpret its observation. She is now a postdoctoral fellow at the Space Telescope Science Institute, which is the organization responsible for operating JWST, and her work combines stat analysis and instrument expertise to extract precise chemical information from distant worlds.

So a friend, let us start at the beginning. What first drew you into the world of astronomy and astrophysics? And then how did you get into exoplanets and the legends that is the James Webb Space Telescope?

Yeah, so I am actually an engineer, everything started with instrumentation. I am really fascinated. with the telescopes and the instruments. I find it amazing that you are able to build something to send it to space and it works in terms of engineering. is incredible. And that's what I love about the job. And then by working on telescopes when I was younger and at engineering school on the technical part of the telescopes and the instruments, I discovered astronomy and I was like, this is even better if we can use those to observe the sky. And among all of the things you can do in astronomy, find exoplanets really inspiring because we can identify to them. We live on Earth. We try to understand what's going on on Earth and in our own solar system. So it's easy to start to imagine what's going on in these other worlds somewhere in the universe. so... Yeah, that's kind of what drove me to astronomy and to where I am now.

So did you start with an engineering degree then and then sort did the PhD in astronomy or?

Yeah, exactly. So I started with an engineering degree. Then after that degree, I did another master's degree in astronomy because I had no skills in astronomy at all. I could do the engineering, but I didn't know about the astronomy. So I did a master's degree at Paris Observatory to learn about astronomy and instrumentation in astronomy. And then I did my PhD.

He Yeah. in moving on to the exoplanets and the James Webb Space Telescope stuff.

Yes, exactly.

So I have a question which you may be able to answer. This is like totally size tracking now. Lorenzo's gonna hate me for doing this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I heard at one point the James Webb Space Telescope had 130 single failure points, like during its development. Is that true?

Yes. Yeah. It's totally true. more than that. It was 300 single failure points. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, if you imagine what it means, but in other terms, it means that if among these 300 mechanisms, one thing fails, everything is gone. Like, everything fails. So the...

no!

You don't.

It didn't launch though with 300.

Yeah, it's insane. actually, so when you do an engineering degree in space astronomy, they tell you, they teach you don't send anything to space that might fall upon one mechanism. They teach you not to do that. And then they build a James Webb. And this one has like 300 of them. So it was...

with 300 failure points? Like, potential failure points?

Yes, that's exactly what they built. Yay!

You, you, you, I mean, even...

potential failure point and the things still

I know, I know.

If you go into a lab, there are not enough fingers to cross for 300 failure points.

I know, know, wait wait.

See, there's a rumour that I heard, well first of all the 130 that I heard was wrong, right? And then the other rumour then was that it was taken down to about 12, but no, clearly all of that is wrong and actually it went into space with 300 single failure points.

It's... Yes, it did. And the crazy part of this is that nothing failed. And that's like a, I don't know, it's a technical achievement that has never been done before. It was the first time, it was a huge risk.

That is true because it works.

Yes.

Yeah.

and they kind of like they made it they made it happen and now we have a flying telescope that is perfectly working and and is going to be working for years now so it's it's amazing

you Here's another, I just, I got another question. Just because you're an expert on the James O Space Telescope. So, the original lifespan plan was like, conservatively five years, hopefully ten years. I've heard rumour that because the Ariane rocket was just like sheer perfection in its launch, that it's actually got enough fuel to go on for like 25 to 30?

That's okay, that's okay, that's okay! That's okay.

Ha

Yeah, so maybe not 30. That's bit too much. But yeah, but like 20 definitely. So exactly. The launch of Orion was perfect. So we didn't need to use the fuel to correct for a trajectory, the fuel that James Webb has. So every telescope has fuel because it has to go to an orbit and then maintain its position on the orbit. So it uses the fuel to maintain the position. But if you use part of that fuel to correct during the launch, to correct for the position to go to that,

This is bit of a stretch.

point to the orbit where you're supposed to go, then you don't have enough fuel to maintain that position. But they calculated all of that, but they didn't think that Orion would be so perfect that you wouldn't be using the fuel to correct for the trajectory. Yeah, I know. It's like everything is perfect, you know, like you wouldn't dream of it and it happens and you're like, wow, okay, that's amazing. So yeah.

European engineering just saying. You

You

Yeah.

We have waited a long time to have it but now it's really perfect

I know, I know. Yeah, and thank God it is because it was really expensive and it took a lot of time. So at the end of the day, we're like, ooh, okay, well, at least we have something that is perfect.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm gonna bring you now back to your path, to our trajectory.

yep to our regularly scheduled programming. that's it. my two side tracks are done with. we're back on on our orbit now.

Yes, sure, sure.

You So during your PhD you were working on JWST, James Webb Space Telescope. Is there a particular specific moment in your path when you realize you're actually working on something historical?

Was it when you saw it was 300 single failure points?

yes.

I think that that was panic I guess.

That was panic, but it was not on my end. So it was just like, good luck guys. I hope it works. I can do nothing with that. You know, I wasn't involved in the making of Gemsweb. My career started right after. Actually, when I started, I'm not going to answer the question first. I'm going to say you this first, because when I started my PhD, Gemsweb was going nowhere. Definitely. Like it was here for ages. It was not being launched. nothing was working as planned. So when I started my PhD, I didn't start with James Webb at all. I started with other telescopes, we know Spitzer, which is a privy...

Wow.

previous infrared telescope or Hubble, the Hubble Space Telescope, or even the new mission Aureole that is coming in a few years. But James Webb was going nowhere. And one day my supervisor enters my room and he's like, James Webb is going to be launched. So we need you on James Webb right now. And I was like, what is James Webb? What is this telescope? I have never heard of it. I know like everyone is making fun of that telescope that is never being launched. And out of nowhere, I started to work on it.

NAH!

Hahaha

So had to learn everything, which was really exciting. But to answer your question, I think the historical moment for me was when we started to receive the first commissioning data. So. You send a telescope, it works, which is like amazing to start with, but then you start to have this data in your hand. You're the only person to see them. No one saw that data before you. So, and, and the crazy part is that when we started to observe exoplanets, this is what I do, right? And then you see these exoplanets in your data. They're here and no one actually looks at them before because they're too small to be observed with other telescopes, but GEMSOPE can do it.

Yeah.

huge one. So it's like everything is new and that was that was a crazy moment. We couldn't talk about it because it was kind of a private information but with my supervisor we were like I don't know yelling in the office. was like it was like a yeah tiny tiny imagine us in a tiny office and and we're like crazy about this. That was that was an amazing moment.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's one room in the building where you are allowed to be excited. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to leave the room straight face. Nothing interesting going on here.

Nothing happened, nothing happened. Jameson, I don't know. What is Jameson? huh, well, easy.

Is that all? That thing that launched? who cares?

And in all those years before launching that you were expecting those data, mean, the data that you received, what you expected, how did you prepare for this mission? I'm thinking about the media, I you had to simulate the instrument. how did you... Yeah. How did you do that?

How do you do that? How do you? How do you simulate?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a very good question. So yeah, exactly. So before we launch any telescope or instruments into space, we would simulate them. So we create like numerical simulators of them. And then you have to put data in it, like inputs in it. So the performances of the instrument, but you have actually no idea how it's going to perform into space. So you do ground-based testing. So you try everything underground in huge cryogenic chambers, which are like... chambers that are able to simulate this space environment. You get the data, the performance is out of it, and you put it as an input into your simulations. And then you try. one thing we're, sorry, go ahead.

So are you like actually using Miri in a cryogenic chamber and you give it like a pretend planet to kind of look at or something? Like a light bulb pretending to be a planet kind of thing? no.

Yes, yes. Exactly. No, this is exactly what we do. Yeah. Yep. Yep, yep, that is. It is not a light bulb, but we do have, you do illuminate your detector. So your instrument that is supposed to receive light from the universe, instead of giving it that light, you give like a bulb or simulator of light. You send that light to the instrument and then you get a response from it and you can start getting the performances. So actually we did this with Miri at CA where I did my PhD.

Yeah. Hey.

but the telescope itself, the huge telescope itself was tested at NASA and at NASA they had like this huge chamber, cryogenic chamber, they put the telescope in it and tested performances. This is absolutely crucial because the conditions of space are so different from the Earth. It's really cold, it's like 3 Kelvin, so would be minus 270 degrees. It's really low, we don't have that on Earth, so you don't know how your mechanisms are going to react. to such low temperatures. there is no molecules like the Earth's atmosphere. So the way heat is transported in space is different. want mechanisms, if they're hot, they cannot evacuate the heat through molecules and through an atmosphere. So it just stays there. So then it increases temperature. And this is crazy. So you don't want that. So you need to do that. And then we did that, took all this information, put it into our simulators, and started to predict. you know, but for a lot of things we were wrong. Yeah. Yes.

really? So the reality wasn't matching the simulations?

No, for the main aspects, yes, but then for the very specific tiny, tiny performances, then no, we were wrong. But of course we were wrong because space is so different from what we have on Earth. And even if we want to have space on Earth, isn't how it works, you know, right? So, but that's okay because we spent three months doing the commissioning, which means trying every instrument and trying all the performances, what we call on-sky, so using the universe. the observations from the universe to calibrate.

Yeah and so then from that you can actually do all of the science that you need to do.

Yes, exactly.

Sorry, I... Yeah, I was... I was fascinated because I was thinking...

It's your question. Like, it's your question next. was like... Yeah.

We lost someone. I know. I know. I know.

I just so often

FRAK I'm doing the same for Ariel What am I missing in my telescope? Yeah, I was check-listing all the things that she was saying like yeah, I haven't done that

No! so you were internally panicking. I see. Okay.

Yeah, I know.

It's just because we have a loose script and like so often I end up stealing Lorenzo's questions and I'm like desperately trying not to and maybe I should I'm just gonna steal all your questions again. Yeah

You okay?

You should go for it, yes. You should just go for it. Now, we have an assistant producer, Caris, which is not in the room today, so she doesn't know that she will have to cut a lot of stuff because of me today.

No, go on.

my god.

You know what? This is what she gets for leaving us, for abandoning us, for fame and glory, right? She's not keeping us on track. This is what you get, Carys.

Yeah When you hear this Harris, we really wish you all the best for your interviews today. That being said, it was on me, so let's take a little breath.

yeah, yeah, we love you really.

So now that the telescope is in space, after your commissioning for example, or even during the commissioning, how do you maneuver the telescope? How do you control it? What is the Space Telescope Science Institute you are working on? What do you do there?

Yeah, so you have to imagine that we have a control room and it's like in movies so it's like when you see in movies that they launch rockets and they're like all in a room with computers and everyone is sitting there and like they're there you know, monitoring what's going on. It's exactly the same thing, but it's the same thing for a telescope that is into space. And so the telescope sends data to us and we have, I like to call it the space wifi, but it's not a wifi, but it's exactly the same idea. So it's called the deep space network. It's a specific network for all.

Ha ha!

telescopes that are sent to space. And so we communicate using electromagnetic fields, know, like using like a wifi and he, the telescope is able to send information. We received it in a control room and then we are able to send information back. And in that control room, so every aspect of the telescope has a specific computer and someone who is in charge. So someone would be in charge of the solar panels to, to

Yeah. Okay.

energy to the telescope. Other people are responsible for the temperature. Is the temperature okay? Is it too hot? Is it too cold? Someone else would be responsible for the mirror instrument. Is the instrument doing well? Is the performance bright? Do we have something wrong? So this is how it works and we have connection with the telescope not all the time because we have to share the network with other telescopes.

Mm. Okay.

a couple of hours a day. So this is the stressful part. This is the stressful part because sometimes you don't have news from the telescopes or like hopefully nothing happened in the meantime. Yeah this is the stressful part but yeah we have this like small amount of time we prepare everything that we want to give the telescope especially the target list so all the targets all the things in the universe we want the telescope to observe we

Okay, to like, get all of the data down.

Okay.

prepare that these we prepare the coordinates and we send this to the telescope and the telescope has a small computer on board that is able to analyze this data interpret and then launch all the mechanism it has to to move and point a specific target with the right coordinates and then launch the instrument that is required to observe and then it gets the data the data is stored in the computer and then sent to us

So it is sort of, it kind of does it on its own in the sense of you give it the instructions, but then it works its way through the instructions until it's done and it gets more instructions. It is.

Yeah.

It's amazing. It's like so autonomous. Yeah, they do actually have built something that is autonomous. And then even more than that, if something wrong happens and we don't see it because it's not the right time where we receive information from the telescope, it is able to go into safe mode, which is like a shutdown of all instruments and only vital instruments or vital part of telescope remain alive.

Yeah. Yeah.

For example, we had this situation where you get a huge... here we go. right after the launch, we received a hit from a meteorite. So there are a lot of meteorites that we were like hit the telescope, but they're really really tiny. So it's okay, they don't really make damage. But this one was huge. And it actually made an impact on the primary mirror. So it was like panic.

yeah, story.

Yeah. I remember seeing the pictures of this.

Yes. And so the telescope was like safe mode directly. And then the next morning you wake up and like, my telescope is into safe mode. What happened? Because this is the way, right? And then you're like, my God. And we got really scared because people calibrated that. They were like, OK, so meteorites are not going to be a problem. And then you just wake up the next day and you're like, well, who said that? Because now they're a problem.

Wow.

It's like, no! Yeah. Straight away. Yeah Yeah

So yeah, so that's an example if the telescope gets like really high in temperature for a reason or something wrong with the cable or something like that it would just go into safe mode and and that's that's amazing because you don't have to monitor it like 24 hours a day you can just let it like be and you can go home sleep that's good

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know that like if something happens, it's fine. It's going to look after itself. It'll, it'll be okay. It's not going to like damage itself just because it's, you know, like waiting for something to be fixed. It's not going to, yeah, it'll stop itself. Getting into sticky situations. So JWST, you send it instructions. It takes its images. It takes its data, stores it, sends it back.

Mm-mm. Yes. Exactly, exactly.

It hits the control room. What happens then once that data is received?

Yeah, so there are two types of data actually. There is the scientific data that is received and is stored at Space Telescope. have servers, we store the data on the servers and then we use algorithms to process the data. So let's say you observe a beautiful galaxy, the data that gets to you from the telescope is encoded in a format that the telescopes can read or we can read, but you cannot. read but then we have to change the format and convert these data into beautiful images that you can see and then we store the computed data the final data into our computers and then everyone can access it so yeah no yes

Okay.

Right, so it's not accessed by everyone at the initial stage, it all has to kind of be processed and then when it's in a workable state, that's when people get it.

Yes, exactly. And then people get it. Some of this data is publicly available immediately, so anyone, I'm saying like literally anyone can go and look at the data and that's the beautiful part in astronomy I felt like because it's available to everyone. But other type of data is our proprietary, I don't know if that's the right word. But like, so the PIs, the investigator that requested time, they will see the data first.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

and then they have like one year to publish the data and then after that one year you can actually go and look at the data yourself. That's one type but the second type is performance data, calibration data. So we always monitor the telescope to make sure everything's fine. We call it housekeeping. So we have housekeeping data. I know it's so cute. Housekeeping data that comes every day and this is our job at Space Telescope to analyze it. So these housekeeping data would

Yeah. Woo hoo hoo!

temperature, pressure and voltage. you know like how the cables react and if everything is fine in terms of the wires that are like connecting everything in the telescope. So this is what we do, we analyze it, we have a week or so to provide our results and then if everything's fine we just continue. Yeah that's the way we do it.

You mentioned PIs and people who request observation. How does that work? What is the procedure to require to ask for time on GWST? How are the observations scheduled? Who decides this?

Yeah, that's a very good question. So the way we do is that in principle, anyone can ask for time. You have to build a case, is an application that you build. So you write what target you want to observe, why this target is interesting for astronomy, what it will bring, what questions it will answer to. And then you create this... application and with your targets you provide this once a year we open the telescope so that people can send their applications and then we review them. This year we received more than 1 000 applications and yeah it's a lot so maybe I don't know if it's a lot in general but we're not that many astronomers on earth and and I can tell you this is this is a lot of applications because there is not that

it's a lot. Yeah.

Yeah.

much time that we can grant the telescope works all the day every day but still 5 % would make the cut so that's that yeah that's it's a very very hard

Wow, stiff competition.

competition and then we have juries that gather, come together once a year to review all of these applications. We have like more than 200 people coming together to review them and then we choose what we think is best in terms of science and outcome and then we release the list and then we schedule it. So we're responsible for the scheduling also of all of these targets and we do that every year.

Here's the question though, if you know there's a thousand applicants, well applications just, mean there's more than a thousand applicants, but there's a thousand sort of proposals. And then there's like a couple of hundred people looking at these proposals. Some of those 200 people have got to be on some of those proposals, right? So how do you kind of circumnavigate people going,

Mm-hmm.

I think this proposal should definitely get picked because it's amazing and it's actually this

Exactly, that's a very good question. We have an algorithm that detects conflicts of interest. So if you are to be a member of a jury and your name appears on other proposals, the algorithm would detect directly this and you will be flagged as a conflict of interest. So you will be put out of the discussion. So this year when I was on the panel, so I am not allowed to be a jury because I'm working at Space Telescope, so I have conflicts everywhere, but I am allowed to help. And so I was attending the juries, and every time that someone is conflicted, we require the person to go out of the room, we discuss the proposal, we grade the proposal, and the person can come back. And so this way, we don't like, this is the way we deal with conflicts. I think it's a good way. Maybe some of us escaped and we don't know, and they...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, so it...

they finally were here and we couldn't know about that but generally it's like well handled yeah it always happens but it's well handled I think

Yeah, they're like sneaky. Yeah, no, it's good that there are kind of processes in place. So is the environment at STSCI, is it quite calm and collected most of the time? Or is it just like, the telescope's doing something weird all the time.

No. you my god. So now it's really calm but during commissioning I was not here all the time but I've heard rumors that people were just running all over the place. So there is a cupboard in the control room where there are like air mattresses so people were like sleeping on the floor. Yeah I'm telling you. But this was only three months and it's kind of okay because this is how it is right. Commissioning is a very very intense moment for

Hahaha

Yeah.

for telescopes now it's pretty calm we have I mean it's everything's running smoothly and if something happens it is very very well handled I can give you like a story about that so I am working on the new mode right now I am going to make a break sorry but is the background noise really loud

Mm.

We hear the background noise, but there is not much we can do about it, I guess.

Okay, Lynn. Okay, wait. I I interrupted it but I prefer it this way. Sorry for the person who is going to manage all of this after. Okay, can we redo the question, please?

No worries, can just take a breath and restart,

No, it's okay. to edit. Yes, what did I say? About what the atmosphere is like at SCI. Yeah, okay.

Ugh, I don't... Yeah, so yeah, maybe, yeah, sorry. Maybe I don't have to redo all of it, but so I can tell you now it's really okay. I'm gonna pose, right?

If Yep, go ahead.

Now it's really calm because the telescope is working very well, but I have a story that I can share, for example. So I am working on the new mode, which means that...

Yes!

all the instruments work well, but we can actually do more with some instruments. So they were planned to do like different things and we didn't use their maximum capabilities because we were starting low. But now that everything's working, we're like, okay, we can push that instrument and do more. And so this is what we're doing right now. Yeah, exactly. But when we started this, we needed to change the configuration of some instruments. So we had to try something new.

Oh-ho.

Yeah, and that's fair enough. Yeah.

we uploaded this to the telescope something went really bad. Like the telescope started to have like a temperature increase, crazy increase, and the instrument started to be hot and hot and hot and we're like my god what's going on. So it's great because safe mode right? The telescope knows what it's doing. So I woke up the next day the telescope was in safe mode.

no. no, god. just kicked in, yeah.

I was like, okay, well, there is something definitely wrong. And the way the teams handle this so calmly. So we had emergency meetings. Everyone is silent. The person who is in charge is giving roles and tasks to everyone to check what's going wrong. And I think this is how these telescopes work that well is because it's really calmly and well handled. No one is yelling. No one is going all over the place. that's how crisis management is well done. So it took them one week to put the telescope back on track. Which is kind of a lot of time, I have to admit, but it would have been like a month if everyone was all over the place. And I think this and assuming, not assuming, I don't know how you say that, but it's like taking responsibility for it. Like we're not blaming anyone. We're not trying to find people that did something wrong. That's not the point. First is to solve the problem. Then we'll start to find like what happened, like who did what. And that is really important, I think. Crisis management is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah and it's having that culture of people being willing to speak up and say that was me I'm really sorry because they know that they're not gonna get you know really bad repercussions it's you know mistakes happen and sometimes there's just holes in knowledge that you didn't even know were there.

Yeah, buy the book.

Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, everyone just doing their best there. No one can be blamed if they're just doing their best.

I totally agree. think this is why space telescope is a very good work environment. because no one feels shameful or bad, we try our best all the time. And if something happens, it's okay. We're a team and we're gonna solve this as a team. And then if there are processes that we can put in place to avoid that to happen again, we'll do it. But this is like, it happens after. And yeah, that's why it works very well. It's good processes, good teamwork.

Yeah. Mm. I love that. I love that. That's very encouraging. I really like that.

Yeah, me too.

Now, this is an exoplanet podcast, so I want to bring this back on track once again and asking you James Webb Telescope has been doing a fantastic job on exoplanet atmospheres. In your opinion, what has been the most exciting result so far? Or with the new mode that you are putting together, what is gonna be the best results you're gonna do in the future? Spoiler!

Yeah

That's a very tricky question. Sorry. Yeah. Okay, okay. Okay. So two questions here, I guess. Yeah, it's amazing what Jamesop is doing. And I know I love exoplanets, but in astronomy in general, this is groundbreaking. Like I have to admit, like, it's amazing. Anyway, so for exoplanets, I think what's amazing with Jamesop... Why am I biased?

Yeah, yes!

You, I think you are also a little biased here, may I say that?

Can't possibly wonder.

No, we all agree that it's fantastic, but...

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So yeah, for people who don't know about this internal jokes, yes, obviously when you work on a telescope, there is only that telescope that exists and you love that telescope and nothing else matters, which is absolutely not true, but I am indeed biased.

Yeah.

Hahaha

So yeah, think what's amazing with JEMSWEP, with exoplanets, JEMSWEP is a huge telescope. Actually, it's the bigger telescope that has been sent into space. So exoplanets are very, very tiny things. They're like really small compared to galaxies or stars. So you need a telescope like JEMSWEP to get the sensitivity to observe them. And that was not possible before. So now you can go and observe very, very tiny exoplanets that are the size of the earth. These planets, you couldn't reach before and this is kind of the first time that you can observe or try to observe their atmosphere and see if they're like similar to the earth or not and for the first time with gem scrub we were able to know the temperature of exoplanets that are the size of the earth and among these exoplanets some of them could be habitable so this is like the first time we can do something like that and that was amazing and i am again really biased but i feel like this is beyond astronomy this is a question that everyone wants to answer right like is there life like somewhere in the universe and with gemsweb we're kind of starting to answer that question so i find this amazing and the second part of the question about the new

Hehehe Yeah.

mode. So the new mode is actually really cool because well you have to imagine that when you observe very bright targets like the Sun is really bright for example you can really observe it with your eye like at some point you'll be like this is too bright this is painful I can't do that. Well imagine that the instrument is exactly the same thing they have saturation limit and which means that if you observe a brighter that is

Mm.

Thank

the target sorry that is too bright, then you reach the saturation and you will break your instrument. The instrument would be like, this is too much light, I can't handle it. So some of the targets are out of reach, you cannot observe them.

Mm.

for GEMSWAP, they're too bright. But with this new mode, we are using an optical element that is already on board GEMSWAP that wasn't used before, that kind of split the light instead of having everything focused on one place. You split the light so you receive less light in your instrument and you spread it so that you can observe very bright targets. And for the first time, we will be able to observe the brightest targets in the universe.

do what we call spectroscopy to actually get the chemical composition of these targets. So I am really excited about this mode because we won't saturate the detectors, the instruments anymore.

wow! Yeah.

So you found a solution for this problem by basically throwing part of the light away. It's too much, just throw away.

So maybe I can give more specific details about that. So the optical element we're using is called the dispersed Hartman sensor, which is a complicated name, to say that we use different parts of an instrument to project the light and divide the light of the stars. So let's say you have like... 100 % of the light coming from a star you divide it into small pieces and and you disperse it in all over the place so that the instrument doesn't receive 100 % of the light but like small parts of the instrument receive 10 % 10 % 10 % 10 % and then Spread exit and then after this you analyze the data and then you kind of sum everything to get

and then so you still have all the light but it's just spread.

It just spread all around. Oh, I see.

the light as it was sent by the star, right? So this is really clever. I know this is really amazing. And the reason why this small piece of instrument is there, like this optical element is there, because they used it to phase the mirrors of Jem Swab. So they kind of spread the light all over the place and then they started moving the mirrors and once they could like put all of

Yeah. Clever, smart.

parts together, it means that we have one mirror that it like like yeah yeah yeah yeah yes yes

I remember this and they had dots everywhere and they had places where they wanted the dots to be but they weren't there and then they had to keep moving the mirrors until the dots were on top of the other dots and then it meant everything was aligned.

Yes, yes. So they used a NIRCAM instrument that has this optical element that was used to what we call phase the primary mirror. So it's just like you have tiny, tiny mirrors all over place and the goal is to get one mirror out of it. And so that was used and then abandoned.

Yeah.

And then now we're like, maybe we can use it for science and let's try it. yeah, and so it's there exactly. So you cannot bring anything new to the telescope. It's too far away to go there. But if it's there, well, let's use it, you know? So that's what we do. Yeah, exactly.

Well, yeah, yeah

Yeah, why not? It's there.

Yeah, yeah let's try it. I like that. So you come, you know, come from an engineering background, right, and yeah, and then you've gone into astronomy. Is there anything about the way astronomy works, the way, you know, large-scale science actually happens, the way people work together that really surprises you?

compared to engineering you mean.

Well anything, is it, yeah has it just kind of, has anything happened in the world of astronomy, the way people work together or don't work so well together that surprised you?

I think what is surprising is how well people are able to work together despite the fact that sometimes they disagree and how disagreement is part of the process. We always think that we shouldn't disagree or it's bad to have bad relationships or not to agree on some topics, but I feel like this is the most important thing because when you start to disagree on a topic, then you start to discuss about it. And if people are open to discussion, then you can confront ideas. And this is exactly where astronomers starts and where you start to do science. So I am surprised it's like it's okay to disagree which is you know this is not the way we do things.

Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's okay. You're allowed. Yeah.

Yeah, you're allowed to disagree. Sometimes you don't agree, that's okay. And people still collaborate. So there are tensions sometimes, especially when you start a new telescope, everyone wants data, everyone wants a piece of it. But after a couple of years, we get used to having this telescope working and so people start to collaborate. And this is exactly what we're at right now.

Mm. Yeah.

So Gemsweb has been there for a couple of years now. So people are like, okay, we have a lot of data. Let's confront our results. Let's talk about it. And that's what I love. And I know it's not Gemsweb, it's Arial. maybe that's like, maybe Lorenzo, you can relate on that, but it's more like for Arial, it's a huge collaborative work because we are deciding the targets together as a team. And I think this is really powerful because everyone has something to say.

Yep.

about what the targets are best, what science is best. So, yeah, maybe you want to comment on that, but I feel like this is really powerful.

Oh yeah, it is true. Well, the consortium that the aerial community put together is a very good example for me, and again, I'm biased myself here, of good collaborative science. Well, everyone just work together for the same goal, and it's good to disagree, but that's how we learn, because different perspectives what bring together the new things, the new toys and the new science that we can do together.

Haha

Here we go. Yeah.

100%. And Shren, you've been amazing, but we have one final question for you because all good things was come to an end and we are unfortunately at the end of this episode. So we're going to wrap up with our signature question, which is if you had to choose one celestial body that represented you or your work, what would it be and why?

Okay, go ahead. Okay, I'm gonna cheat here. I'm gonna have to. Is it okay? I know, I know. Okay, so...

Yeah we'll allow it, we'll allow it, we'll allow it. Because we did say you or your work, so you know, it's fair.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, so actually there is one that is for me inspirational and one that is like it comes from my work. So I'll start with my work. So I've been working on an exoplanet that is exactly like Neptune. Neptune is the one in our solar system that is further away from the sun. It's a gaseous planet and we found a similar one in another system and it has this terrible name was 107b. I'm sorry about names we have like terrible names of exoplanets but we observed this neptunian planet or neptune-like planet with james webb and for the first time we're able to like see the composition like what's in there and we found similar things that we would have in our solar system and in neptune so that would include a sulfur dioxide which means nothing like that but trust me it's it's a world deal in

Yeah.

in the solar system. Sulfur dioxide, you can find it on Earth, it's from volcanism for example, you have sulfur dioxide. Or in Titan, which is one of the moons, or Io, that is a Jupiter moon, you have sulfur dioxide. So we start to have this comparative results by observing exoplanets and being like, okay, we actually find stuff that we have here in our solar system. So I just love that. And that's

Mmm. Yeah.

This was 107B, it's kind of my baby. Also this is like one of the first target I've been working on. But the one that I love and it's gonna be really cheesy, it's Jupiter and I'm gonna explain this.

Yeah. I love Jupiter!

Like I know me too. It's a very cool planet, but it's not just Jupiter. It's Jupiter and the moons of Jupiter So when I was a little girl not that little actually, but well, I was younger I understood that You could see planets by eye. So when you look at the sky you see stars, right? And then they're like shiny dots and these dots are not Specifically like stars they can be planets and it was like wow, you can see the planet by eye. That's that's amazing So you can see Jupiter by eye and then if you use a small telescope you see like Jupiter and the stripes and the red giant dot and this is amazing and then I realized that if you use a bigger telescope you can see moons and then in my head it was like but you can see stuff that you don't see with your eye but they exist there so a telescope is such a powerful tool that it reveals the universe that you cannot see so there are things beyond

Hmm. Yeah.

what we can see and only a telescope can reveal that and that's how I felt in love with instrumentation because it was like you can build a tool that allows you to see some things that your eye cannot catch.

I love that.

and that means a lot to me. So I just love the moons of Jupiter because I didn't know they existed and I could see them. So I'm like, okay, they're here. So yeah, it's a bit cheesy, but I just like... Okay.

Yeah, yeah. That's a lovely answer. It's a really lovely answer.

No, it's a lovely answer, I love that. Yeah. Building telescopes because they can bring you beyond. It's fantastic.

Hmm.

Yes, exactly. I think we share that love for telescopes and we understand that. Yeah, you go beyond with them and this is amazing.

Thank you for taking us behind the curtains of James Webb Space Telescope and showing us both the science and the human effort that make it possible.

Thank you to everyone listening. Join us next time on Growing World as we explore another corner of the universe and the people bringing it closer. So we now have an alternative ending that we need to do. Sorry.

Sorry.

Okay, no problem.

It's because this is... Well, you will see now. Go,

Yeah, it's, it's, we think your episodes could be the last episode of the season apart from like the special we'll do so we just need to like to have the alternative ending. But also if you want to say like thanks for having us, like Harris can drop us, that's my fault I interrupted you.

Mm. No problem. Bye bye. No, I'm happy to say bye. Should I start or...? Okay, thank you... Sorry. Okay, I'll do it again. Thank you very much for having me. I had a very great time with you. Bye, guys!

No, it's okay. Good.

Perfect.

And to everyone who has listened, supported and shared this first season of Growing Worlds, thank you. We'll be back with our season finale next time, sharing our favourite moments and finally, the announcement you've all been waiting for, which celestial bodies represent us and why. But don't worry, after a short break, we'll be back next season with more stories from the people shaping exoplanet science.

And until then, keep looking up, stay curious and remember, new worlds are growing and so are the people discovering them.

One take, Carys. Woohoo! No editing whatsoever!

That was amazing! That was insane! I was taken by it, I was like, yeah!

You